Artist Series: Matt Gibson
"I'm like a hoarder, but with memories"
An interview, a conversation, an interrogation, a manifesto. This is the Lucky Rigatoni Artist Series. I value the searching, the longing, the process. These conversations are gently edited for clarity. Matt and I spoke fifty years ago. I’m thinking more and more about my own role in this process: my procrastination to edit this transcript and the undisclosed gap between the conversation and the published interview. We had this conversation in September, but we spoke again about it at my birthday party, and have continued to talk to each other about what it means to create art, about how much joy we derive from sharing our work with each other.
Matt Gibson is a photographer and videographer based in Pinehurst, North Carolina. He previously worked at Golf Channel and the PGA TOUR.
Kelsey Swintek: So the first question I wrote — Frazer sent me a message after my last interview, “should be called the Am I an artist? series.” You already told me that you don't consider yourself an artist. Can you confirm that?
Matt Gibson: Yeah, yeah. “Professional creative,” I think is how I would describe myself.
KS: Ugh. So depressing. But how would you define an "artist" in 2022?
MG: Yeah, it's interesting, because.....sorry, I just want to process my thoughts. How would I describe an artist? Was that the question?
KS: Yeah. How would you define an "artist,"—I'm using quotes—in 2022? And the follow up question is, do you consider your work to be art?
MG: So I think when you asked me [to be interviewed], there's an element of, and I mentioned this to you, that everyone feels some level of imposter syndrome.
You know, I've read all of the interviews: Frazer says he doesn't feel like he's an artist; Jenna was talking about her relationship with that. You posited to me that [this interview series] started with Sarabeth, who at the time of her interview, was attending at the Royal College of Art, and was branding herself as an artist.
And so when you said, Hey, Matt, do you want to talk? I was hesitant because I went, you know, I didn't formally study for this, and there's a level in any creative process, that I'm sure you know, in which you compare yourself to other people, right? And so there was an element of myself comparing myself to Sarabeth going, you know, here's someone who is a capital A-Artist, and I don't want......there's a part of me which doesn't want her work to be, you know, I won't say 'dragged down' to the level of my work.
I mean, I started this conversation by saying that I feel like I'm a creative professional, versus an artist, you know what I mean? I struggle with the same struggles that a lot of people struggle with—like, how do you define yourself? Is it necessary to even try and define yourself? Why do we even bother? So I've been thinking about that, and I'm not sure I've even answered your question. Do I consider myself an artist? Probably not. Or I don't think I did, until I started thinking about it more. And the more I think about I guess, like, technically, yes, what I do is create art, or there's an art element of it, but I'm not sure I would say that I'm an artist.
KS: I really like that question. Why do we even feel the need to define ourselves? It's a good question.
MG: Yeah. I dunno. I think because it goes back to what I was saying that, just, we like to compare ourselves with people So you define people internally in your mind. I see another photographer and I go, that person shoots that style, and that's who they are. So I need to figure out what I am.
It's the old airport analogy. Think about every single issue that you have in your life. I've got this bill to pay. I've got that bill to pay. I've got to reply to this email, I owe this person a call back — and then you look at every single person around you, and every single person has those exact same issues. So I look at another photographer, and I go, this person is so defined in their practice, but they're probably thinking the exact same thing that I am. You know what I mean? How do I shoot this? How do they shoot this? They're comparing themselves other people and yeah, it's just like it's all part of it, right?
I struggle with the same struggles that a lot of people struggle with—like, how do you define yourself? Is it necessary to even try and define yourself?
KS: Yeah, I think maybe you brought the airport thing up to me before once, but I haven't thought about it in terms of my own career, and I think, for the longest time as a writer, I was like, oh, I'm just gonna feel like a writer, like once I get accepted for publication. Like, once I have any piece of writing that's accepted in a journal, then I will feel like a writer. Then it's like, that happens, and you don't feel any differently. But you had assumed, like, from not reaching that threshold, that everyone who has, just, is fine. And then like, you're like, oh, no — no one knows what they're doing. And it's fine.
MG: Yeah. You know, I shot Augusta last year, and I was in this room of people. There was six of us in the room, photographers and videographers. I was chatting to a guy, one of the people, you know, who'd been hired by Augusta -- he's at the top of his game of golf photography. I said to him, Where are you going next? And he goes, I'm going back home. I'm a full time pharmacist. This is just a part-time gig for me.
There's no binary moment. Like, I am a writer; I am not a writer. Now I am a writer. I am not a photographer; now I'm a photographer.
That's what I've been grappling with. You know that photography is a new thing for me. So I'm hesitant to say, I am a photographer. But how do you define it? Do you define it as somebody who is taking a photo? No, because everyone's got an iPhone, and everyone's taken a photo. Not everyone is a photographer. Is it somebody who has been paid to take photos? Well, then yeah, I'm a photographer. Is it—you just have to make your peace with it.
KS: Yeah, I can't—
MG: Do you think you're a writer? Yes, right? I've answered your question. I know you do. Because you are, because you write.
KS: I—
MG: Maybe I don't know the answer.
KS: Laughs. No, I am a writer. But I struggle with my identity as a photographer. And I was curious for you — I didn't put this in the questions — but, you say that photography is relatively new to you, but I feel like you've always had a visual eye, since I've known you. Or do you think that I just imagined that?
MG: I think weirdly, you don't realize the, I won't say "influence" because it's not the right word, and like, I don't want to say like "demotivation," because it was never a "demotivator" for me, but—we're obviously best friends and I've always viewed you as a writer and a photographer. And so even now, I'll say to you very openly, I feel, not weird about talking about photography with you, but I don't want you to be like, Matt's just suddenly a photographer? You know what I mean?
KS: Like it's so weird that you think that! I don't think that at all.
MG: I know! And we shoot completely different things. You shoot on film; I shoot on Sony DSLRs. It's a completely different thing.
KS: That would actually be really fun - for one day, we should try switching cameras and see what happens. Literally, I would be like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do!
MG: I physically wouldn't be able to work your camera.
KS: Laughs.
MG: So it sounds like my personal relationship with it. Yeah, like, it was easier for me to fall into photography, because I am a videographer, video editor — I say 'by trade' in inverted commas. So, yeah, understanding how light works and how cameras work. And—
KS: —like you had to learn the elements of photography for videography. So then it was easy to transcribe that to photography? Or at least, there was a path.
MG: I wasn't just picking up a camera, like, how does this thing work? You know what I mean?
KS: Like, what if the image doesn't move?
MG: Yeah, exactly.
KS: I'm curious because I've never - I do take pictures - but how have you found like, you know, years spent shooting videos and cutting them together? Like, I imagine when you're shooting a video, you have this idea of where you're going to cut it in the process; the same way if I'm writing a sentence, I have an idea of where in an essay I want it to be, or at least an idea that it's part of a larger framework. The work that you're doing on video is not typically a single shot. I don't even know the language to talk about this - one take? Laughs.
But so I'm curious how that has shaped the way you approach photography, where a lot of times an image, especially for social media, is probably going to be standalone. A print is on its own, or it's in an [Instagram] carousel, and at which point, you're still looking at only one image, versus in a video where it's within a larger context.
MG: Yeah, I don't know if what I'm gonna say is the correct answer or not. But basically, when I shoot a video, it's almost like writing an essay, right? You have to figure out what you want your conclusion to be, and then work backwards from there. So if I'm shooting—
KS: *laughs maniacally* is that how you think writing an essay works? because that is not —
MG: Like an academic, like an undergrad essay. You know, like, prove that Michel Foucault said X thing about gender studies. You have to figure out what Foucault was saying, then you've got to work backwards and figure out your argument. It's like that with videos. What do I want the final product to be? And then I work backwards from there, right? I've got to figure out what shots I need to produce this final thing.
And that's why, I guess, my title is producer, right? The word is to "produce" something. There was nothing, and then I produced it. Whereas I found myself with photography, there's no like, conclusion, you know what I mean? There's no like, Hey, here's the final end goal that I'm working towards. I'll pick up a camera, and I'll just I'll see the what catches my eye that day. It's different [from video production]. It's like completely different, and it's cool. I find it less structured than video, which is nice. So yeah, I think that's….I've forgotten what the question was, but yeah.
KS: Yeah, I was asking how video, like having that process of having to cut everything together and imagine your shots in a larger context, affects your photography, and I think you did answer the question. In a sense, it almost sounds like it's….more fun? Like lower stakes, almost?
MG: Video? Or photo?
KS: Photo - like if you're just taking photos, versus producing a video.
MG: 100%. I think that's why I like taking photos because, I think, I'm probably jumping ahead, (one of your questions is "what do you like about the creative process?") but for me, and this is probably, it's completely sacrilege to say; maybe it is, maybe it isn't, I don't know - my favorite part is the end product.
KS: Just having a picture? Or having anything?
MG: People like saying, Oh, you know, it's about the journey, not the destination. Like yeah, I get that.
KS: Laughs.
MG: But for me, like for example, with video, you have to spend days shooting it, days editing it, and then when you have a 45-second, or a minute-long video, I'm proud to show it off. You know what I mean? For me, that's the coolest part.
KS: Yeah!
MG: There's an element of photography where you just get instant gratification. I take a photo. I edit it. It's a short, like, burst of adrenaline. It's like, oh, here's this thing and it took me basically no time to produce, you know what I mean?
KS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I totally get that.
There's an element of photography where you just get instant gratification. I take a photo. I edit it. It's a short, like, burst of adrenaline.
MG: I picked up the camera. I took the photo. I edited it. And here it is. It took me 10 minutes, or something.
KS: I want to talk about that "Here it is" process, because you recently started a social media account just for your photography.
MG: I did. Yeah.
KS: Do you want to talk about it?
MG: Yeah, honestly, this probably just comes back to the more cynical side of life. I don't know if this is newsletter worthy, but I'm speaking to you more as a friend and whatnot, but—
KS: We can cut whatever we want, lol.
MG: —It's just for the money. You know, I mean? That's the harsh reality of it.
KS: Because you might get more jobs?
MG: Yeah, honestly, like that's it. It's a thing to legitimize my own work.
KS: Daaaaaaaaamn.
MG: That's the harsh reality of the world we live in.
KS: It super is.
MG: If you say, hi I'm a photographer, people want to see your photos, right? The reason I did it is because I can say, Hey, I run all the social for Pinehurst, and someone can look at my photos there, but then you run into the lines between work and your own creativity.
KS: Yeah, 1000%.
MG: Someone at work is gonna go, Hey, can we get a sponsored post for Client X? And I go, I hate this photo, because I didn't take it, and it was taken in 2015, and it sucks. So imagine if someone comes to me and says, hey, where can I check out some of your photos? I'm interested in hiring you for freelance, and I point them to Pinehurst, and then they see this sales photo, which I didn't take, and they go, Oh, he took that photo? That sucks. You know what I mean?
KS: No, yeah, it does make sense.
MG: It was a selfish act —
KS: —like it's so you, like, it's not selfish. It's just normal. You know?
MG: It's just honestly - it's a play. I've got a mortgage and a wedding....
KS: Laughs.
MG: You know what I mean?
KS: But I wanted to ask you—so you shoot golf. How many golf photographers are there? Because I also wanted to ask you, like, do you see yourself taking pictures....outside of golf? You've been using your camera way more, like, when we're hanging out and stuff. Would you ever consider doing other photography? Not necessarily for money, but also for money?
MG: Yeah, I do golf photography purely because it's, I guess, a byproduct of the jobs that I've had. I was a video producer for Golf Channel, and so there's just a natural progression. I honestly, I don't actually love shooting golf courses, which sounds crazy. When I was reading Jenna's interview, and she said, I like to shoot photos with people in them—and I'm the same. Look, I can shoot golf courses. I have an okay eye for it. But, I sort of, it's not that I derive no pleasure from it, but I just, I'm trying to find my own style.
KS: What does that look like for you? I'm just gonna push you further—like when you say you're trying to find your own style—
MG: Yeah.
KS: Practically, like, what are you talking about? For someone who doesn't take pictures?
MG: Yeah, and honestly, what does the style mean? Is that how you shoot? Is it just how you edit? Is it? For me, the only thing that I care about with a photo, is that I personally want to like it.
I think that (and I still struggle with it), if I take a photo of a person and I edit it, right? And I adjust my colors and all that stuff...there's a part of me [that worries], when I send it to the person, they’ll go oh, I don't like this edit. But no one's ever said that to me, so, why do I worry about that? So I think...I've lost my train of thought.
KS: Your style.
MG: I just want to make stuff that I'm proud of.
KS: Yeah.
MG: And that's when I shoot a golf course, it's fine. I like it. But for me, when I take a photo of a golf course, it's just like, here's a photo of a golf course. You know what I mean?
KS: Yeah. Yeah. It's golf.
MG: But with a person, again, it's like the airport analogy, like what's that person doing in that photo, that is telling a story in that photo? Like, you get that story with a golf course. Which is fine. And yeah—
That's kind of where I'm at right now personally in whatever this, you know, new stage in my life is. Look, I can take photos of golf courses. But to your point, you said like, I'm bringing my camera out way more. Because that's why I got into video — I just love documenting shit. I like to look back at stuff. Do you remember, I actually don't think we had it in the UK— but "Hoarders," the TV show?
KS: Yeah, I remember.
MG: I'm like a hoarder, but with memories. I want to be like, hey, look back at this thing. You know what I mean?
I'm bringing my camera out way more. Because that's why I got into video - I just love documenting shit. I like to look back at stuff…I'm like a hoarder, but with memories.
KS: I do. I'm actually, um, I'm trying to cut back. Laughs.
I'm serious. I think, in my freshman year after spring break, where I had both of my cameras, and that's when I realized, like, I really have to only shoot film because I am missing everything. Because I would like look at the photo, I take it and be like, that's not what I wanted. And like, I would end the day with like, 250 photos. Like, what, what the fuck am I going to do with those photos? So that's when I switched to film because it would be like, Okay, I have 35 frames I can take today. And that's still a lot, you know?
MG: I think you and I are pretty similar in that.
KS: Oh, for sure. That's exactly how I've always felt. It's interesting. I'm curious, like, golf, no golf. I don't give a fuck about golf. But like, what kind of work? are you most proud of? It could be recently, or in your lifetime? Could be photos, videos, writing?
MG: That's a great question. I don't think I've thought about that.
KS: Because I mean, we haven't even touched on like, you wrote a play. And then like, produced it. Like, that's insane.
MG: I don't know what I'm proudest of. That's a good question.
KS: I can let you you think on it.
MG: Yeah. I dunno. And it's weird, because I think there's a part of me, which wants to like, I don't know what the phrase would be for it — but like the equivalent of like, name dropping, you know what I mean?
KS: Like, your accolades. You've done some cool shit.
MG: Yeah, to be like, I shot Augusta. To be asked to shoot Augusta is a cool thing that not a lot of people get to do in their lives. In fact, I think probably maybe—
KS: Most people don't.
MG: —I think maybe like, 200 people have done it in the history of this world, sort of vibe. You know what I mean?
KS: Yeah. Yeah.
MG: So there's an element of like, I'm proud...yeah, no, I'm not gonna beat around bush. I definitely am proud that they asked me to shoot that.
Yeah, I think that I'm quite proud of that.
KS: Right, right. And this was like, I mean, obviously, you've been working in golf for a long time. But in terms of how long you had been marketing yourself as a photographer, like pretty recent, right? Yeah. Like within a couple of years.
I'm curious, like, do you think about writing at all? Like you have written, you've performed—
MG: It's funny you say that. I've been, this comes definitely like full circle, I struggle a lot at work with feeling creative.
KS: Hmm.
MG: I'm probably—and I'm sure work wouldn't mind me saying this—I have the most creative job at the company. Because it's a golf resort, right? So there's people who are part-time servers. There are people who are marketing professionals. There are people who work in cold-call sales, right?
KS: I'm like, how do I get that job? Laughs.
MG: You've done that bloody job mate. Laughs.
And I think I'm the only person [at the resort] who's like, sole job is just like, hey, be creative.
KS: Just, "make stuff?"
MG: Yeah, just come up with whatever you like. So I struggle with that, because I'm not surrounded by other creatives. Like you go to a writer's workshop, right? You must come back from that and you must just feel like, you have one thousand ideas popping out.
KS: I could run through a wall. Yeah, I struggle with this so much too. So much.
MG: Like, when you're surrounded by like-minded people, you have so many ideas. And then so for me, I go to work. And I'm like, How do I be creative? And it's hard.
KS: Yeah.
Like living in small town, rural North Carolina, or just not in New York, is different. Like when I'm back in New York, and I'm just surrounded by people, I feel so creative. I'm surrounded by people.
MG: And then so I go home. And yeah, I want to write. Like, maybe two weeks ago, I dusted off some old scripts that I had written years ago.
KS: Very Taylor of you.
MG: Yeah, I know. And I went, I wonder if these are still good. I read them through and I thought, I really like them still. And so I think there's a part of me, which is like, I just got to go out and do it, though.
MG: It's different from someone like Frazer, who you interviewed. I think when you interviewed him, and the life of any actor is auditions, right? It's hard to really control your own future, right? Whereas, yeah, look, I could try and sell these scripts off. But for me, I want to write, but I also want to make these scripts and shoot them. It's different. It's weird as well. This is like a completely different like avenue.
Living in small town, rural North Carolina, or just not in New York, is different. Like when I'm back in New York, and I'm just surrounded by people, I feel so creative. When I’m surrounded by people, I'm like, look at this random thing that happened, or do you know what I mean? I know you know what I mean, but yeah.
KS: I think for me, too. It's not even necessarily like Pittsburgh, smaller than New York or Pinehurst is smaller than Pittsburgh, but just like in New York, I was walking everywhere or taking the subway, so I was just exposed to people at a higher rate than I am here when I'm driving. Like I don't see that many people.
MG: In a day in New York, how many people do you reckon you like, physically saw?
KS: Oh, that's such a good question. Like a Saturday? Or a workday, like at my office? I think a thousand people worked in my office. It's not like I saw all one thousand of them. But I could have in my office, I could have seen like, a hundred people just in that building in the day.
MG: You know, you didn't like speak to them, but just in your plane of vision. 20,000 wouldn't be crazy.
KS: TWENTY THOUSAND?!
MG: Think about when you get on the subway- how many people you see on the subway? Like a thousand.
KS: No! Do you know how like many people 1000 people is?
MG: Okay yeah. 20,000 is a lot.
KS: 20,000 is a lot. I think a thousand.
MG: Okay. Didn’t you used to work in Flatiron?
KS: Yeah.
MG: Think about like, if you just walked outside in Flatiron. Oh my god, you'd see a thousand people just there!
KS: Laughs. Like, if you're saying how many people are within a 400 foot radius of you in a day, versus like, how many people do you see in your plane of vision? I'm seeing like, max 100 people at a time.
MG: Anyway. The point stays. Today, I probably saw - I don't know, 50 people?
KS: Wow, big day, big day.
MG: Ya I know. I know.
KS: I'm generously gonna say that I saw 20 people at work, then Andrew, is 21. Do people in cars count? Two of my my neighbors drove by—23?
MG: Yeah. Yeah. It's different, isn't it? Yeah. So you have to motivate yourself though, right. And you?
KS: Oh, I literally struggled with this all the time. And it's funny because I think in your head you're like, oh, Kelsey, like she's like a writer and photographer and she's just like doing it.
And I'm like, it is so fucking hard. Like, half of the reason I started this series is because I get so much out of these conversations. Because no one like, I like hanging out with friends, and obviously I love talking to them, but it's not like all the time we're just like, like, what does it mean?! What are you working on? You know?
MG: It's interesting. I don't think you and I have ever really spoken about it. Which is weird. Do you speak to your other friends about this? Like, do you speak to like, Sarabeth and Jenna about it? This is getting into our relationship as friends more than anything, I guess.
KS: Yeah, I mean, but like, not all the time. I wouldn't say necessarily more than with you — if anything, I speak to Jenna about art when we share work with each other. Whereas Sarabeth and I talk about identity and art, and that intersection. But yeah, I think —
MG: I think I'm pretty closed off about my stuff.
KS: I know! That's why I was really excited to talk to you.
Because I think it's funny, like, the way that you're talking about it now is so eye-opening to me. Because to me, you were always the person that was just like, I'm just gonna do this. And then you do it. Like, I have never known a creative person that would just like, I don't know, make work, you know? And so for me, that was always inspiring of like, well, if Matt can do it, like, why wouldn't I just do it?
Also — there's literally no one that's like, oh, you can't do this. There's no gatekeeper that says like, your photo is shit. You know what I mean? People take terrible photos and share them all the time. And some people make a lot of money doing it, you know?
And I think I — ooooooooh, I'm like, do I believe this? I don't know. I've had one spindrift. Wooooooo!
But I'm at the point where I'm almost like, I think when I was really young, like 25, I was obsessed with creating good art, like wanting to be a good writer, wanting to take great photos. But now I'm at a point where I'm like, who is the arbiter of what is good and what isn't?
MG: Sure.
KS: Because what you were saying, how you describe your style as like, you just want to take photos that you are proud of. And that's how I've always seen my photography as well - like, I might get a roll processed and I'm like, I have to send this to Matt. Like, check out this photo! You know what I mean?
It's in the sharing, for photography, at least for me, that I recognize when I feel proud. So I think your photos are good. But what does that mean?
MG: That's why my favorite part about the creative process is the final output. Like for me, that's like the coolest part. Kels, look at this photo.
KS: So for photography for me, definitely. For writing, it can feel better when it's just me, especially with personal writing. But I think my newsletter has desensitized that for me — like I'm more willing to share my writing and less precious with it in a way that I think is good. Because before, when I was so precious, and I was like, this has to be really good, like, I just wouldn't share anything. And then like, what was I doing?
MG: There needs to be like a one-year anniversary of this series where you are the subject.
KS: Oh, I hate that idea. Laughs.
MG: Artist Series: Kelsey Swintek
KS: Will you interview me?
MG: Yeah, fine. Yeah. Good. I would love to.
KS: Fine, fine. You said that you pulled out some scripts? Are you working on anything now that you'd like to share?
MG: I would say no, honestly. I'd like to say yes. For me, work is a creative outlet. And so it's just - and I really struggle with it - I come back home sometimes and I feel quite, quite low. Because there's no end goal for me. Sometimes I get really upset because I'm like, I'm just creating shit for creating shit's sake. You know what I mean? And that's like, that's crappy right?
KS: I don't know. I think I understand why it's crappy when you're in it, but also, like, people celebrate that too. You know? Like, that's what I'm doing, not for a job, but like, I'm just like publishing a newsletter, I'm interviewing you, you know? I'm writing, just to write, you know? It's not like these journals are catapulting me to international recognition and fame. But I'm just doing it because I would rather do it than not do it. But I think there is something really interesting to me about the conflation between creativity and profession and money - because you have an objective worth and an objective job. Those things, to me, are almost antithetical to the creative process.
MG: For sure. And I think that's where I like really struggle, right? Like last week, I was feeling pretty uninspired. So I picked up one of the cameras, and I went, I'm just gonna go outside and just go for a walk, and if I see something, great; and if I don't see something, fine. I went for like a three hour walk round Pinehurst Number Two, literally one of the most famous golf courses in the world, it costs like $600 to play there, right?
I just walked around it. I didn't take any photos. And then I came back, and I was like, I just wasted three hours of company time. That's the struggle that I deal with.
KS: It's like, every minute that you're not making something, you're like wasting....something.
MG: Yeah. But that's part of the creative process is like, this doesn't feel right, I'm not feeling inspired. And that's part of it. But for a company, it's like, oh, Matt, what did you do today? I walked around for three hours, and I didn't do any work. You know what I mean?
KS: I think that is just like a mindset thing. You know?
MG: Yeah 100% it is.
KS: You're like, oh, yeah, my mindset is shit.
MG: It's crippling at times.
KS: Well, it's funny that that happened to you with the lens of like, this is your job. So recently, I was dog sitting in Deep Creek for two weeks. And I was like, Oh, it's my writing residency, like Mark and Janelle are so generous to let me use their beautiful house, I'm gonna be alone here. It's so stunning, I'm on the lake. I'm gonna get so much writing done. I had such a great time in June at writing camp - I felt so inspired, like, wrote until I had a piercing migraine at 4pm because I was thinking so hard.
And I get to Deep Creek, and I'm just like, I felt like, just at a loss. I was reading over what I had written. I tried reading stuff to feel inspired. And I was just like, I don't know what the fuck I'm saying. And I can sit here and like, bash my keys, but it's just gonna be shit later, you know? I just can't do it. I think sometimes it's important to force yourself to write, or force yourself to be creative, because stuff comes out of that — but at the same time, like, the same week that I was really struggling with my manuscript, Evie and I collaborated on something that's going to be published this weekend. And so it's like, it really is just a shitstorm. Sometimes you feel really low and you don't know why. Sometimes, a win comes out of nowhere.
MG: Yeah, it's, I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Like, just there are lows of having to be creative and like, it sucks. Everyone goes through it, which is like, obviously nice to know, I guess. Maybe it's not nice to know. But like, yeah, maybe I don't know what I'm working on. I'm just always working on different stuff.
KS: It was funny that you were just like, “no,” because I'm like, Well, you were just on vacation. You took like loads of photos with your family and like -
MG: I was shooting photos this morning, but it was for work. You know what I mean? Yeah, like, am I going to publish photos tomorrow? Yes. But like, am I proud of them? Like, no, that's my job.
KS: Yeah. But like —
MG: What a sad end to the interview, man.
KS: I feel that because you do it for work, you don't have the same appreciation for your photography, like umbrella term, like as I do?
MG: Yeah.
KS: But it's like what you were saying before, like, your obsession with memory is driving some sort of hoarding tendency. And every single photo that you take, is telling a different story about a different person. And even if it's the same person in all those photos, they're actually different, because there are different times in that person's life, in that person's day.
The way that you remember the taking of the photo, the way the subject remembers it, like, all of those things. It's almost like a blender, right? And then together it could become something else, if you wanted, you know? You have really good storytelling abilities, so you can do whatever the fuck you want with it.
MG: That makes me think about the line between, like, what's real? And what's fictional? And does it really matter? You know what I mean? And I think I said to you one time—and I think about it a lot—is like, I really like video, because you look at video and like, this is the fact of what happened right? Here is video proof of what happened. And then you're like, No, it doesn't say that, like, because a video from a different angle would tell a different story. A photo can tell one very specific thing, but it's like, not that, or maybe it is that, but it doesn't matter. And like Who are we to say?
The thing that inspired me most, more than anything is Exit Through The Gift Shop, which is a documentary by Banksy. You watch it, and then at the end, when you're done watching the movie, you have just watched a documentary. And then someone says to you, Hey, you watched a fictional movie, it was just presented like a documentary. It looks like a documentary, it's presented like a work of nonfiction. For everything, you know, it's nonfiction, but they just wrote it and it's all fictional. Does that change how you enjoyed it? No, it doesn't. I enjoyed it. I loved it. I watched it as a work of nonfiction, but actually was fictional. So is that unethical? I don't think so. Who are we to say what's true and not true?
Who are we to say what's true and not true?
KS: That's like a huge conversation, I think. And—
MG: It's like a whole separate thing.
KS: I write nonfiction, and like, sometimes I'm like, would it be easier if I wrote fiction? You know? Like, I don't need to tell people that this actually happened. And also like, how far do you stretch in nonfiction to protect people's identities? Or, your memory is limited.
I have to challenge myself because I hear what you're saying like, yeah, you still enjoyed the movie, but I'm like, fuck that, he's a liar.
MG: Yeah, honestly, I can have a conversation for like, six hours about this topic. Like, does it matter? Have you seen the movie Catfish? No, because you never seen any movies. But —
KS: No, should I?
MG: You know, the premise of like —
KS: I know what catfishing is.
MG: Yeah, that documentary, like, coined the term.
KS: Oh.
MG: You should watch the documentary.
KS: Will it make me sad?
MG: —And then if I had said to you, I was like, Hey, that was an entire work of fiction. Would you be upset?
KS: I think no, because I don't care about movies. But you're talking about Catfish, the movie itself, as a catfish. But like, if I write something, and then a year later, I'm like, Oh, I don't think that anymore. It doesn't mean that that's not nonfiction. And people get like, really sticky with this. And I think with photography, what you're saying of like, you could take a picture of something and you're like, Oh, it's a picture like that means it's real. It was really there. But you, as the photographer, have so much power to determine how your viewer is going to interpret that photo. The reality is really muddled.
MG: Or like, the honestly, this is, like quite a boring point. But like Photoshop, man,
KS: Oh, yeah.
MG: The amount of TV cameras that I've photoshopped out of a photo. Just say, Hey, can you Photoshop out this TV tower? Or hey, can you Photoshop out this thing? So like, actually, that's not what happened.
Am I Banksy in this situation? Did I make a fictional documentary? Hey, here's this thing that happened. But as you know, that's not what happened because of the funny guy with a tripod there, and I just photoshopped him out.
KS: Ugh! So good, though. It's so true. It's so true! And like these places, like especially like, I'm getting ready to go on a trip. And so I'm like, googling all these blogs. I'm like, so excited. I'm looking at these photos, and I recognize like, one they all look the same, because everyone takes the same photo, but two, are these people just waking up at like, four in the morning? You know, like, there's no one in the photos. We've created this idealized version of all these places that are real, but like don't actually exist, you know? Man, and now I'm gonna go watch The Bachelor. Like, people always tell me, that's fake. I'm like, No, it's not.
MG: This ran way longer than you wanted. I know that you're trying to keep it to thirty minutes. Just be brutal with my edits.
